Closing Remarks
With us are Tom Grundner, president of the National Public Telecomputing Network, in Cleveland, Ohio, and Louis Gomez, associate professor at Northwestern University in Evanston, Illinois.
Thank you so much for being with us.
Now, you know, one of the most important benefits of being on-line is that it puts teachers and students in touch with other communities in the real world.
And from your experience in working with schools and the university, Professor Gomez, can you tell us how does this work and what are we achieving here?
Dr. Gomez: Well, I think the fundamental thing we are achieving by bringing teachers, students, and working professionals in all kinds of disciplines together is a new vitality to learning, a sort of, in science, for example, it helps students and teachers understand what the real practice of science is about and it helps scientists understand what teachers in schools and children in schools are facing. And together, I think that scientists can help teachers bring a new life to science instruction and take science out of books and help all of us understand what the real practice of science is about.
Deputy Secretary Kunin: All right. Now, you are an interesting example of a university working with two schools. Can you be a little more--you know, describe to us what it is you provide to the schools, and did they contact you or you contacted them, and how did this all happen?
Dr. Gomez: Well, with the help of the National Science Foundation, we contacted them to work together to transform an earth sciences curriculum in two high schools in the northern part of Chicago, on the north shore of Chicago. We have provided opportunities for students to work directly with atmospheric scientists at the University of Illinois at Champaign-Urbana. We provided the opportunity for them to go on virtual field trips to the Exploratorium Museum in San Francisco.
The goal is to transform environmental and earth sciences classrooms from being standard lecture lab classrooms to project-based classrooms where students and teachers ask questions that scientists that they collaborate with don't know the answers to. And it brings a whole new light to what it means to do science instruction.
Deputy Secretary Kunin: So it's a learning experience for you as well, I think.
Dr. Gomez: It certainly is.
(Laughter.)
Dr. Gomez: It certainly is.
Deputy Secretary Kunin: Tom, can you tell us, you're doing something very unusual in linking communities. Can you describe what it is?
Dr. Grundner: Well, it's difficult to do in a few words. But the National Public Telecomputing Network is a rough sort of approximation of, let's say, National Public Radio or PBS on television, only instead of developing radio or TV stations, we develop free public access community computer systems.
Now, these systems are meant to span the entire community: the medical community, the business community, the governmental community, but also the K-12 community as well. And what we try to do is to provide locally oriented resources that can be used by schools to match and to fit with the kinds of things that are available across the larger Internet.
Deputy Secretary Kunin: Well, I think we have more to learn about that because this is very, very innovative. And I understand you have 41 cities now?
Dr. Grundner: Right. We have currently got 42 cities on line and about 121 organizing committees under way in about 42 States. So we are expanding very rapidly.
Deputy Secretary Kunin: That is very, very interesting.
Now we have a phone call from Don Harris in Toma, Wisconsin. Go ahead, please.
Mr. Harris: Hello.
Deputy Secretary Kunin: Yes, you're on.
Mr. Harris: Yes. This is Don Harris in Toma, Wisconsin. I am a member of our Toma 2000 Committee and also a member of our Education for Employment Committee.
As a result of a recent school referendum, we are adding onto our high school to accommodate a ninth-grade move to make it a four-year high school, and we are remodeling the junior high. And at this time they are working up plans to put in computer labs.
What I was wondering was would it be better to have the computer labs or to have the computers in the classrooms?
Deputy Secretary Kunin: Well, I think I will let the experts handle it first. From my observations, I guess I would say put it right in the classroom.
What do you say, Louis?
Dr. Gomez: I would say put it in the classroom. I would say if you have the money, do both. But if you don't, I would say put it in the classroom where the instruction takes place.
Dr. Grundner: I would say wherever you put it, put a modem and a phone line on it so that you can reach the rest of the world.
(Laughter.)
Deputy Secretary Kunin: Yes. I mean the most important thing is to make sure that the teachers have the training to use it. I mean I have been to too many schools where the new computers are carefully locked up, and sometimes covered up with a nice plastic cover like it was some precious new toaster that you didn't want to use too often. And the idea of computers, of course, is to use them and use them and use them, and not only for drill work but to really integrate it into the learning process.
So I am sure Linda Roberts would concur that, in addition to investing in the hardware and the software, invest in training your teachers.
Is that what you found in your high school?
Dr. Gomez: I absolutely agree. I almost believe that it should almost be a dollar-for-dollar investment. I mean the technology would be of absolutely no use if we can't create supportive environments for teachers to use it.
Deputy Secretary Kunin: Have you had that experience in the schools?
Dr. Gomez: Yes, indeed. I mean you have to factor in the teacher training part of it. You have to find a way to make teachers look smart in front of these students, and that is one of the key elements in making it work.
But I think you also have to spend some time and effort and thought into developing the resources that people are going to access. It is terrific if we can go out on the Internet and access all sorts of far-flung things, and many of these things are really excellent. But I am wondering the extent to which this ramps up, if we are talking about bringing whole States on-line, whole States and schools, whether or not there are enough Lawrence Livermores out there and enough free nets out there in enough other places, without also systematically developing educational content out there on that network that is going to make it worthwhile for the average teacher and the average student to access it.
Deputy Secretary Kunin: We still need kind of an introductory stage. Even as I am listening to our conversation here, I think we are already using a vocabulary that is quite specialized that the average teacher may not be familiar with. Certainly when you say, "Okay, the world is open to you," you still need a road map to maneuver. And I think that is something that is worth further development.
We do have another caller. From Mesa, Arizona, Jan Dietrich. Please go ahead.
(Pause.)
Deputy Secretary Kunin: Are you there, Jan?
Ms. Dietrich: Oh, yes. I'm sorry.
Deputy Secretary Kunin: Yes?
Ms. Dietrich: I am calling from the Academy with Community Partners, in Mesa. We are wondering how you monitor the information that students are accessing on the Internet. I know some schools use firewalls. I am wondering what other school districts are using to be sure students access appropriate information and not inappropriate information.
Deputy Secretary Kunin: Well, we actually had a little discussion about that at dinner where there were various schools of thought. And you've got one of them. Right?
Dr. Grundner: Well, yes, as a matter of fact.
(Laughter.)
Dr. Grundner: I think we need to create resources that are specifically tailored for K-12 schools. We need to have islands in this Information Superhighway that people can go to. I think a huge mistake is to just simply do what I call cyber-dumping, just taking these kids, dropping them on the Internet, saying, "Go out and have fun," without building at least some location, some islands there that are academically solid, that are clean, that are worthwhile educationally and in every other way.
Deputy Secretary Kunin: Right. Now, can we do this without censorship? What have you found with your high school students?
Dr. Gomez: We found that we give students monitored access to all the resources on the Internet because there are things that are there that they should have guided access to. So we have restricted access to certain kinds of material on the Internet.
Deputy Secretary Kunin: And you can do that?
Dr. Gomez: Yes, we can.
Deputy Secretary Kunin: You can. Yes.
Now, in our earlier discussion there was Doug Wood's point of view, just to represent it here, who felt that there shouldn't be restrictions. But they do, of course, also have a more narrow access to the Internet. So I think you have to figure it out how to do it in a way that is appropriate to the age of the children you are reaching.
Dr. Gomez: Normally, I guess I concur with Doug that we want to have uncensored access, but uncensored access requires a certain amount of training and support.
Deputy Secretary Kunin: That is probably the best way to put it. Thank you.
We have another caller. This time, Steve Carlin from Garden City, Kansas. I understand that is a rural area. Why don't you join us, please?
Mr. Carlin: Thank you. My name is Steve Carlin. I am from Garden City, Kansas. I am a technology coordinator for the school district. And we are in a rural area about 300 miles from Denver, 200 miles from Wichita. And we have heard of some wonderful examples of how schools and universities are working together, but we are 150 miles from the nearest university.
Our biggest barrier is the high cost of communication through telephone companies and the like, and I was wondering--and Mr. Grundner may have mentioned some--if you have some suggestions on how we can work with these telecommunications companies or possibly alternatives, and finally, maybe some funding sources that we could access that would make some of these things possible for us.
Deputy Secretary Kunin: Take it away.
Dr. Grundner: Glad he asked.
This last week we received a substantial grant of about $450,000 from the Department of Commerce that is to be matched with some other grant sources for a total package of about $900,000 specifically to answer that question: How do we get things such as free net-type computer systems into rural America? And what we have developed basically is sort of a shrink-wrapped McIntosh package, if you want, that allows any rural town anywhere in the country that has telephone service to be able to operate a valid community computer system with connections to the Internet on a periodic basis.
Deputy Secretary Kunin: Can Mr. Carlin call you?
Dr. Grundner: He certainly can.
(Laughter.)
Dr. Grundner: We have a number of systems we need to bring on line next year, and Kansas is certainly a high-priority area for us.
Deputy Secretary Kunin: Why don't you call the Education Department tomorrow, and we will put guys in touch with one another?
Dr. Grundner: Sure.
Deputy Secretary Kunin: But I suspect there are many people like that out in rural communities who are asking similar kinds of questions, and either you need an angel or a grant or something. The beauty of telecommunications is that you can be this close, you don't have to be 150 miles apart, but you still have to make the connection at some point. Right.
Did you want to add to that?
Dr. Gomez: No, I agree with you, absolutely agree. I mean one of the reasons, I think, that we have been successful in our schools is the collaboration that our schools have received from the university. So you do need an angel.
Deputy Secretary Kunin: Yes. But the universities can extend their reach.
Dr. Gomez: They certainly can.
Deputy Secretary Kunin: And I think that would be great if you tried to establish a connection with a university near you. And this might make them eligible for a grant and really start a new kind of partnership.
We now have another phone call--I think this may be our last--from Gandolph Parker in Fairfield, California. Please go ahead.
Mr. Parker: Yes. I can speak representing two groups from very small towns which may have a problem with their funding requirements. One is that computer user groups can be located through local businesses, and it often will be a great fund of people who do technical installation of networks or manage networks, possibly have businesses that already have an on-line connectivity. If you contact user groups, you can often find volunteers to come out and instruct teachers or to help with installations. Often they are also upgrading their computers and looking for some home for the old system, which has a terrible resale value but possible donation value.
The other group that people may approach if they happen to be lucky enough to be--or unlucky enough--to be near a military base, is that the military, with the forced drawdown, many of the military members are looking for anything that would put them one up over the other guy when it comes to selection for drawdown of force.
Deputy Secretary Kunin: Let me say I am sorry I am going to have to stop at this point. I would love to continue this conversation, and you have got two terrific suggestions, I think, for people to explore in their own communities, about computer users, volunteers, the private sector, and if you happen to have a military base near you, you can obviously get lots of expertise there.
I would like to thank you both, Louis and Tom. I wish we could continue this conversation. We just scratched the surface, but I am sure you will be available.
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Closing Remarks
kstubbs and gsolomon, 10/22/94